Welcome back to the art of connecting podcasts. This is your host here, Hayden Fike back with another episode. And today obviously we're audio only, so you can't see me, but we are in a different venue. We are in the brickyard right now in Chattanooga, Tennessee, which is the home of multiple different startup businesses. And I get the pleasure today of interviewing one of the co founders of one of those businesses. And so we have Ward Neely here with us today. And how are you doing, Ward? Man, I'm great. Good. Happy to be up here. I'm happy to have you. You're John mentioned you're coming out of a central time zone. Where'd you come from today? I'm out of Birmingham. Birmingham, Alabama. Pretty quick shot. Yeah, it's not bad. So Ward, if you want to go ahead and just introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you are and how gumption came to be. Yeah. So I started in the real estate business really kind of foolishly. I got in, in 2009, 2010. Like literally walked in, started working for the shopping center group and there were like six empty offices. I mean most, and not just shopping center group, anybody like was losing employees left and right. There just weren't any deals. And I started on the tenant rep side of things. Really got like a PhD in site selection from some of the best guys in retail. And then moved over to SRS, worked there for a short period of time and, and then was transitioning into development. And through that transition, it got to the point where like the only deals I was doing were on my own deals. And so ultimately I broke off and did my own thing. And early on, most of it was urban revitalization, historic rehab type stuff. And then picked up some like out parcel retail type type deals to just kind of using more of the background. And so I did that almost exclusively retail. You know, we do one small project and leverage it into the next one and the next one. And just like every other startup developer built in a house of cards and then the storm came for COVID. We were, I got the project started. I did the whole thing myself, PG, the whole thing. It was, I don't know, three or four times bigger than any deal I'd ever done. And we started in January of 2020. So couldn't have timed it much, much worse. Fortunately I had a great lender community bank. That's my plug for community banks. Like find somebody you can trust, find somebody who knows you as a person. They worked with me as best as they could, but ultimately we extended IO twice, I think, and when it was time to start back there, like, man, you got six months. And if you can't finish it in six months, you're going to have to go permanent or you got to refi and we don't want you to start back until you get it figured out. And I knocked on every door in town and could not find anybody that would refinance a hospitality deal. back in 2021. You know, COVID had kicked those guys pretty, pretty far down. And and we were getting affected by it. So I ultimately ended up selling a huge chunk of the asset to an out of state group who then refinanced at the closing table with an out of state bank that I'd never heard of. And that was the big light bulb moment for me. I was always just like a sticks and bricks kind of real estate guy. The financing was, Really more back of mind and you know, when rates were at 3%, it was easy to be back of mind because it was like, just go to whoever. And then when things got complicated, that was a big wake up call for me was, Hey, I got to get better at this and I've got to increase my network. And, and ultimately that's what we've tried to build with gumption is to give borrowers, property owners, developers, a bigger network. using technology that's really already out there with Tinder and and, and eHarmony and all the other dating apps. Like that's all we are. It's a dating app that connects, you know, the, the borrower with the lender. So tell me, tell me a little bit about how that system works with gumption. Like I imagine a dating app and you kind of made the simple description, but like how does it work when somebody says, Hey, I've got a deal and I need money. What do I do now? Yeah. So it's, it's on us for the gumption side of things to go out and get the lenders. Fortunately that hasn't been easy. Or excuse me, hasn't been hard. I think we've added 150 lenders and only two didn't want to join. Cause for them, you know, what they do is they're going to answer a series of questions. It's going to help us build a profile for them. Instead of long walks on the beach and college football, it's legal lending limits, geographical parameters, you know, what bucket is empty, you know, what deals they need, what buckets full so that we don't send them those deals. And then on the borrower side, it's, you know, you plug in your address, your NOI, your construction budget. Is it stabilized? Is it not stabilized? You're going to answer about a 20 question flow. And at that point we essentially have lender profiles and then property profiles. And then the gumption algorithm is just going to match you up with the 10 best options on the network. Just like a dating, dating app, except for we don't have a swipe left option or a swipe right option. Right. And then that generates term sheets. Right. So when you have, like, what, what does that look like when the bank says like, yes, I do want this person. Yeah. So it actually goes out when, like when the borrower is going to submit their deal, it actually goes out in an anonymous version. Some people are a little bit more cautious about wanting their deals just kind of plastered out there when in our situation, it, it doesn't go to like the whole network. It's, it's not like Crexie or loop network. It's a market where people can go shop. It's all targeted and the only person that sees it are the people that we send it to. But then those, you know, those deals are going to go out with like a 30, 000 foot view. And then the lender has to say, Hey, I'm interested or no, I'm not. And they've got to agree to the property type, the NOI, the address. And then there's also like four to five sponsor questions like liquidity, net worth, all that stuff. So they have enough that they can say we're interested. And then we ask for term guidance. So it's not a real term sheet, but it's, Hey, based on this, with the understanding that these deals or this deal is accurate, here's where we're probably going to land. And we ideally get that back within like 48 to 96 hours. Okay. Which sounds crazy. But it happens and you know, for us, we'll get two or three back and we'll go to the other interested lenders and we're like, Hey, You know, we, we need your terms. And a lot of times they're like, well, I got to see this. I got to see a picture of this picture of that. I'm like, well, that's awesome. But the other three lenders didn't need to see that. And ultimately they, they submit, they were trying to figure it out. Right. Yeah. So our goal is three to five term sheets, you know, term guidance within a week. And so far, unless it's a really crazy deal, that's we're, we're pretty close there. So I love the aspect you talked about how when you were, when you were doing this big deal, you ran into a network block, right? You didn't have the right amount of people in your network. And then there was this out of state bank all of a sudden it's like, Oh yeah, we'll fully fund it. I've heard that before. There's like a bank in Nebraska apparently that funds like random deals. They've got like, it's part of, you know, maybe Warren Buffett invest in it or there's some wealthy guys and they're just like, They'll invest in certain assets that other people won't. And so how did you guys build out that network when you were getting started? Like what did, what did that look like? Because I mean, a hundred banking partners, that's a lot of investors dreams, right? So they even have like maybe 20 banking partners that they could call on. Yeah. Well, so it's really twofold. I mean, a lot of it was hustle early on. We had to have enough lenders to even convince somebody to plug a deal in the platform. And then we have a wizard, wizard. that is our engineer. Tim is insane. Yeah. And so he actually has a tool that will suggest lenders to us that aren't even on our platform. So he's feeding out of the FDIC data. And so like we'll have a match, like maybe a good example in, in Tennessee is a pinnacle. And if we're doing a deal in Alabama and that deal match with pinnacle, Then Tim's tool that he's built would be like, well, if Pinnacle's a match, here are the banks based on assets and branches and, you know footprint. These are the guys you should be talking to that aren't on your network. And so then we go out, call that lender and we're like, Hey, we got a 12 million storage deal in Birmingham. Is this something you're interested in? Most of the time they're like, yeah. Very interested. So it's as easy as that. And then once they're on the network, then it's just a, Hey, keep your profile updated and we're going to send you, send you deals. Worst case scenario, you're getting an extra email, you know, for sure. So something that I've heard, I actually just heard last night from a guy I'm on the board of the UTC Real Estate Club. And we just had a guy who is one of the chairman of ICSE come out and speak to the students. Oh, nice. And he's also in Alabama And he was talking about how, he was asking about storage, as I was telling him I own some storage, and he was like, Man, the banks I'm seeing in Alabama, they're not lending on it anymore. And so that was really surprising to me, and he's talking about Huntsville specifically, because he's in Huntsville. But, So I feel like your network can kind of help circumvent that a little bit, correct? Like, if you've got an asset that none of the banks here locally are lending on, what does it look like to get other banks interested, or typically out of state banks really wanting to be in Tennessee? Or like, how does that look? Yeah, I mean, you know, Like to some extent, I think it goes back to a network situation, right? I mean, there's 9, 000 banks and credit unions out here. And to your point with Nebraska, like there's tons of rural banks that you've never heard of in Alabama and Tennessee and Georgia and Texas. And a lot of times those guys have maybe one loan officer. And most of the time they're deploying. their deposits and low interest T bills and bonds. And it's because they don't have access to good real estate deals. Like they're going to get a retail deal in a small town. It's like dollar general or bust. Right. No. And so we're essentially like that digital loan origination office. It doesn't cost them, you know, 2 million to build and 10 employees to manage. Especially for guys that want to come in and try a new market out. Huntsville is a great example because it's such a booming market right now and you've got Nashville, Chattanooga, Atlanta, Birmingham, all these lenders are like, Hey, I want to dip my toes in the water. This is an opportunity for them. But the rural banks, it's Hey, like we wouldn't have had access to this deal beforehand. And that's been a, that's been a big thing for us is storage has actually been a big freaking gangbusters for us. But it's, you know, it's probably from a bunch of lenders he hasn't ever dealt with. Yeah. That's very fascinating that you mentioned the, the out of state and like, that's just a totally different. Totally different game for people, right? Right. And, and so something I want to ask you about too is when you guys were first starting this company and It was an idea, right? What were some of the connections like through your network? Where like how did the creation happen? Like what what's the story behind that? Yeah It was a connection. I had a buddy who was one of the founders of Bellhops And he's just always been a good friend, you know, way beyond just, you know, hanging out and stuff like that. He's just a good, caring person. And he knew I was in a pretty bad spot with that battery two project. And so he was constantly like checking in, Hey, like, what can I do to help? How are things? And As I'm going through the process, he's like, Oh man, this is a great software solution. I was like, that's awesome, but it's not going to help me right now. We'll talk about it afterwards. And so once we did get the deal finalized, I was like, Hey, I'd, I'd like to learn more about how software can be a solution here. And then crazy enough, John and Tim, my two co founders had worked for him at bellhop. And so his thought was, There's a million good ideas out there, but if you don't have the right team to execute on it, you have nothing. And so, from that first conversation, I don't think he and I talked for a couple months. And then he called me up one day and was like, hey, we're going to Chattanooga tomorrow. I was like, I got four kids, I can't do that. He's like, no, I got your, I got your team. And you're gonna go up there and we're gonna eat lunch and you gotta convince them to join your deal. And so that connection is what led me to John and Tim. Which just ultimately led to You know, two years of being in the trenches together. And is this like your main thing? Are you still doing real estate development or is gumption like the full time like focus? Yeah. I mean I, I still have a you know, kind of a portfolio of assets that about two years ago I sold some stuff to kind of get stabilized. You know, also, like I said, I have four kids. That last one was quite, quite the scare. So it was Hey, let's take a step back and maybe appreciate life a little bit. And and the plan with gumption was to have one foot in one foot out for better or worse. Gumption is running at a pace that I can't have a foot in over there anymore. So I had a deal I was working on I guess for the last like nine months. And I just assigned the contract to another guy about three weeks ago. Basically it was like, get this out of my hair. I can't, we can't keep up with what we've got right now. And so, yeah. So I still have to manage some stuff. I owned a bad Cox and when they filed bankruptcy, I've got to, you know, find a replacement there. But, but as far as day to day development, no, I'm I'm about 60 hours a week on gumption and hope that hope that that's all I'm doing, but I've still got, you know, probably three to five hours of other stuff that has to get dealt with, but it's just part of it. So your weeks are pretty, pretty stack full. Yeah, we're, we're pretty solid right now. I mean, I think, I think we all see the potential of this thing. Again, it's like, it's hit stride faster than we thought. We were, we had product faster than we thought. Right. We hit revenue faster than we thought and now the volume is increasing faster. And so for us One it's a we don't fail to you know, if the sink can run we want to run with it And I think we're all committed to if we've got a up our Celsius and Red Bull intake to see this thing to the finish line We're gonna do it. Wow, that's amazing. Did you ever picture yourself being in a startup space? Yeah You know, kind of I always have, like, I've always been an idea guy and I've always been like a little bit of an outlaw in that. Like you tell me something's done this way. I'm like, I bet I can figure out a better way. And I've busted my nose and skinned up a bunch of knees trying to do that. But I actually had a connection early on, right out of college and I was always bouncing ideas off this guy. Hoping that he'd invest in one. And after like six weeks, he sat down with me. He's like, you know what your problem is? You're so worried about making 10 million. You don't even know how to make 10. And he's like, you got to start over, learn how to make 10, then learn how to make a hundred, then learn how to make a thousand. And then you learn how to make 20 and then 50 and a hundred. He's like, but you're trying to skip all the steps. And he's like, if you can't figure out the like fundamental basics, you'll never get to your end goal. And if you learn the basics, you'll just look up one day and you'll be at your end goal. And I was Kind of like, I guess this guy's tired of me drinking his beer, you know, he wanted to get rid of me. But it was some of the best advice I'd ever been given. And that's when I got into real estate and stopped trying to, you know, invent the next Google. So what did the basics look like? What were the basics that you took out of that conversation of like, this is how I'm going to make my first 50, my first hundred? What were those steps? Yeah. I mean, it was find a job. Fortunately I'd been talking with a guy at the shopping center group. He's like, you got to come over. It's commission only. Take it or leave it. I was like, no man, I just graduated from college. I'm going to get paid somewhere. And he and I did this like every three months. And then finally I was like, how about give me like 1500 bucks a month, just something to live on. And he's like, you're hired. And I was like, really? Like that? He's like, yeah, I just wanted to see that you'd negotiate a little bit. So that was like lesson number one. He also told me that there was a level of value that he was going to be giving to me that money wouldn't replace. And I didn't realize it until afterwards. But that's probably some of the better advice I've ever given or ever gotten and then have given is like, if you know what you want to be, but you don't know how to be it, find the person that's it and then go tell him, Hey, I'll work for free. Yeah. And give it eight weeks. And at the end of eight weeks, if you haven't earned their respect and. Find somebody else. But hopefully you're learning and you're proving that you can be an asset to somebody. And sometimes that eight weeks to 12 weeks of working for free will get you way more than taking some entry level job or they're going to shove you in a back corner. So that is one of the best points I've heard on one of these shows is I, you have to work for free sometimes. Yeah. Right. Or like ask, how can I help you grow what you want to grow? Like, that was what I did with my mentor. It's like, I was sitting over at his very nice house in the kitchen. I was taking notes. I was like, what do you need right now? And he was like, one thing, I'm starting hard money and blending out because I've got, a very large line of credit that I can arbitrage. And I was like, okay, I got them two loans in the next week, you know, because I heard that. And it was like, okay, I know about that. I know how to do that. Let me get this, let me get him some referrals. And he started paying me referral fees. And now it's like two, 3, 000 a month that I'm making off of referrals that I, you know, never really expected. But it came out a question of like, what do you need right now? And I think that's a great point that even these people that you think don't need anything. Like every person, no matter how big they are in their business, they have some need somewhere. Yeah. And if you ask them what they need, and if you can help them fulfill that, you're the, you're the golden boy. Well, it can be something like super minuscule. I think a lot of people think, I have to, I have to bring a PhD or a master's note. A lot of times you just bring a hustle. Like one of the places I think I kind of maybe developed a niche. When we're doing tenant rep and site selection, like very rarely where we showing up with a Starbucks deal where there's a sign for sale on the corner, right? It's like, we got to go find the best corner, establish what's ideal. And then we got to go convince somebody to sell. And half of the battle in rural markets like Alabama and Mississippi and Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, like tracking down ownership. can be somewhat difficult. And so that's probably where I, I think if you ask Greg right now, what did war do well? And he could tell you a lot of things I did poorly. But the one thing I did well is I could track down anybody. And a lot of times I would have people that would be like, how'd you get my number? I'd be like, well, saw your name in obituary and I did find your aunt and I convinced your aunt to give me your cell phone. Holy crap, man. Yeah. But that was, I was willing to go down the rabbit hole that nobody else would go down. I think that there's a great point with that too, is you weren't just calling them to waste their time. You had Starbucks, right? Right. So you're calling them and they don't want to be bothered, right? Right. Cause a lot of these wealthier guys, like they get so many phone calls a day that It's like, leave me alone. I just want to be with my family. Right. But when you're calling them, you aren't just being like, Hey, would you sell your property over here? Right. You're like, Hey, I've got Starbucks interested in your piece of land. We're going to give you top dollar. We're going to give you more than anybody else would for it. Give me a chance. And that by having something to offer, they're not going to be bothered by that call. Right. They are, you know, bad on them. Yeah. Right. Well, a lot of times, I mean, cause we're, I'm back in the cold calling business with gumption. But a lot of times we'll tell them up front, Hey man, give me 90 seconds. It probably will be a waste of your time. If not, it's going to be really beneficial because I'm going to open up a network of lenders to you. But if it is, this is not going to be the first 90 seconds you waste today. And I think being like upfront and honest with people is maybe refreshing and and 90 seconds. Like prove to me pitch me in 90 seconds. And most of the time I'll even set a timer. So I can be like, I was 73. I gotcha. You know? Yeah. So as a co founder, you're still cold calling today. Yeah. Oh yeah. Wow. Dude, I'm like last year. So I've, I've got four kids. My two oldest played baseball and I'd throw a batting practice and I'd have my AirPods in and like a lot of lenders that we were working with. I just got used to hearing the ding in the background. I'd be talking through a deal with them. Hey, what do you not understand about this? What, what questions can I answer? Cause right now, like, This is a relationship business. The borrower lender relationship is very relational, and for us, like, we're not trying to remove that. Like, there's never gonna be some call center overseas that's processing these deals. Like, we want a pro over here. We want somebody that's been in the trenches, that's a solutions driven, you know, asset to the deal. And that's why our structure, our comp structure, is set up on, we only get paid if the deal closes. And we, it's because we view ourselves as a teammate. And if you're not winning on the deal, why should we be getting paid? Right. Hmm. I love that. So what, what are some of the kind of what, I want to rewind a little bit because you mentioned that, you know, when you were getting started, you came out of college and you negotiated with this person. What, what are some of the relationships and connections in college that really gave you that confidence to go into real estate and to go in and negotiate? Because this is not a common industry. I don't think that people go into right out of college. What were some of the you know, who, who convinced you to go in real estate and. Who are some of the influences that were like, I can, I can go in and negotiate. Yeah. You know, I think some of it's like personality driven. I grew up spending a lot of time in a rural area with my grandparents house. They had like four channels on their TV. And one of them was CBS, which is price is right. Right. And as a kid, like my granddad watched price is right every day. And I watched it with him. And so like numbers and pricing were always interesting to me. I'm probably like the tail end of the millennial age group that still had newspapers. And so every morning I'd, I'd read the classifieds. I just love reading, like seeing like what's for sale, what's not for sale. And by the time I was like 13, there was a section in the Birmingham news called the bargain Bonanza. And it was everything in it had to be under a hundred dollars. And if you listed it in there, it was for free. And so I picked up on the fact that there were people that would list like two or 300 items in the Bonanza because they didn't want to pay the 19 listing. I don't know why, but it just like, it would happen. Like, and it was every, I think every Saturday morning. And so I cut grass growing up, always had a little extra money. And so I got where I was buying and selling stuff there and buy like a guitar and go sell it to a friend and and then that slowly moved into golf carts and other stuff. So I learned how to negotiate in like 5 increments with old men and Hueytown, Alabama buying golf carts. And so like that level of confidence on the negotiating side was something that started at an early age. And then the networking side, I don't ever think I've viewed like, contacts and friends as an asset. It was more of their friends. And so the relationships were deeper. And then when the, when the connection was beneficial, it was way easier. And I'd say that's probably my biggest piece of advice is like, don't build contacts to make money, build contacts to make friends. And then the contact and the relationship, it's a lot more fun. Fun when you're making money with friends, you know? Well, and also figuring out like, how can I make them better off? Right. Like how can I make, connect them to somebody that's going to help grow their business or, you know, connect them to someone who's going to spend money with their business. And that's like the best gift that I can give. It makes me the happiest to be able to meet somebody and figure out like, How can I help your business grow? Right? And they're like, Oh, well, if I had this, it would just make my life easier. And I can just pick up my phone and make that phone call and, you know, make that introduction like that. That's like one of the best feelings in the world. Even if I don't get paid off of it. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, there's a, I don't read a lot, so I hate like quoting books and stuff like that. But I read a biography on Jerry Weintraub. It's the guy that did the oceans 11, all those ocean series, but he also helped resurrect Elvis's career. And they asked him, they're like, what's your job? Like you're a movie producer. You you're in, I think he was in real estate and other stuff. And he said, I'm a yes man, baby. And they're like, let's see. Yes, man. He's like, people come to me with issues and problems. And I always say yes. And a lot of times when I'm saying, I have no idea how I'm going to help them, but I become this like conduit to solutions. And, and I've always like tried to embody that. And I think once you get a reputation of helping solve problems, then everybody starts showing up and then you start becoming that highway that everything's running through. And then you start seeing a lot more. opportunities, a lot more deals, or if you save somebody in a bad spot, they're going to remember that. Oh, for sure. They'll, they'll repay you. So I think this is a great time to talk about one of our mutual. I mean, it's someone that I connected you guys to at gumption. You, we were kind of talking over one of one of the deals and you know, he's run into It's, it's a, it's kind of a wacky deal, right? Like it's, it's not a normal deal. Cause when are they, you know, sometimes they are normal, but they're more often than not. Like there's something about a real estate deal that's a challenge overcome. Right. And you were talking about how on this deal it wasn't really going to happen. And, but you just started making phone calls. It's like, do you know any doctors or people who would be willing to co sign on this? And can you tell a little bit of the story on like, How your mind processes that whenever you see like a wacky deal, what, what do you go through to figure out how you might be able to get it done? Yeah. You know, for me, it's like a gamification type thing. Like every deal is a game and it's whether it's, you know, Tetris or whatever. I'm like, how can I make, how can I win here? Cause I'm a super competitive person. And that one was with a repeat customer. And so naturally like we're going to do everything we can to keep winning that business. And I think that's probably a testament to, I think 35 percent of our pipeline right now is repeat business. And a lot of that's cause early on when you're in a startup, like you're not getting the straight down the middle 50 50 loan to equity McDonald's deal. Right. You know, you're getting the like tattoo parlor that's like two off of main street and and the roofs falling in. Right. But if you can deliver on that, then you get the next best and then you get the next best and we're okay with that. Like we actually, we love the challenge. And then if we deliver on that, we know we're going to win your business for the next one and the next one. But but that deal specifically super problematic. It's a small community bank deal. It's a lower price point. Right. but with community banks, a lot of times they want to have some sort of local presence and both sponsors, one's in Texas, one's in South Carolina, they're in South Georgia. And so it's just like, what can we do to get over the hump? And it's a good deal. It's, it's a solid deal. These guys have a good track record. They're, they're really good at delivering. And so our thought was, Hey, let's find a hard money lender that can get them across the finish line. And in doing that and When we're pitching to local doctor, lawyer, whoever else, who's going to know, see, and be able to drive by the asset. The other option is, hey man, if you want to just co sign on the debt here, these guys will cut you in on the deal, and then it's maybe even more beneficial. Right. So for me, it's just like, step one is run it through the platform, make it easy. Step two is go lender network, and step three is Just freaking put some gloves on and grab a hammer and let's figure this thing out. Right. Which I, I mean, I think that's a testament to your company and you specifically, because like, I mean, this is a 350, 000 deal. So like for some people listening to that might, might be seem like a large amount of money, which, you know, it is a decent amount of money. But like when you're talking about in the commercial real estate world, 350, 000 is like picking up a piece of popcorn off of the movie theater floor. Like it's not like a deal that really gets people excited most of the time. But the fact that you're willing to put in your time and effort and energy into that, I think is a huge Testament of Your willingness to connect people and to do what it takes to get the job done. And I, I really applaud you guys for that. Cause it's, there's a lot of people that I see in the connecting that I do. And, you know, It's like, well, we won't even touch it because it's just like, that's not enough to even fire up the computer. Right. But yeah, we're willing to do it. That one, that one will actually be the smallest deal we've ever done on the, on the platform. So far, but you know, I don't think like, we're not looking at this thing as a deal by deal basis. Like for me, it's, we're building a relationship with somebody who, for me being in the business for 12, 15 years, whatever it's been I can tell who's got, who's got it, who's got the drive, who knows how to figure things out. And these guys have it. Right. And so their growth is our growth and that 350, 000 deal this month very likely is a three and a half million dollar deal next month. And you know what? In five years they're going to be 35 million deals. Oh for sure. And, and that's like, we've used that kind of tagline with a lot of people like your growth is our growth. And we're here to build relationships and grow together. And and you know, it's, it's easier to get motivated when you're looking at the long range as opposed to what's right in front of you. Right. So speaking of looking forward, as you're growing the startup company and are you guys, I mean, are you still a startup technically? Like by, I mean, you're, you're what? Two years in. So is it like, are you, are you like past the startup phase? You think? You know, I think we're still a startup. Yeah. I mean, we've only, the product hasn't even been live for a year yet. So we started really like two and a half to three years ago, like business plan. And all that, but you know, like this lingo, I don't even know, I can tell you ingress and egress all day, but like I call our CTO once a week, I'm like, dude, I'm locked out of the platform again. Can you reset my password? Oh, that's too funny. So, but yeah, so I would, I would definitely say you're in, you're still a startup. What are, what is the path forward? Like what are, what is on the front of your mind every day? Like What are the connections that you guys need to be able to grow the company to where you want it to be? Yeah, I mean it's It's multi faceted like we're we need more people We're out hiring right now on the sales side and on the fulfillment side It's building brand awareness like letting people know that we've solved some really complicated deals and and then to some extent it's convincing the people that already know me in the business that I have nothing to do with the technology, that we actually have like a really sophisticated team building it. I'm just like the guinea pig on the wheel and these guys are building it around my inefficiency. And that's really, I think from a product perspective, it's keep solving. That's a kind of a motto. Just keep solving. Like, how do we make? We're not trying to reinvent the wheel. We're just trying to help it spin a little bit more smoothly with like, you know, little incremental improvements in every aspect of the lending process. You know side of things have you guys ever thought about doing like wacky deal challenge of like going on social media and saying like Our company specializes in finding loans for for deals that like you may not be able to get done It would be so cool to white go on Instagram and see like as someone who's a nerd about this kind of stuff to be like Bring your wacky deals. You get like five people to come in and they run through it. You know, maybe you do a YouTube series and they run through the financials of the deal and all that kind of stuff. And you show like, all right, we're anonymously going to put this on gumption and let's see what we get. You know, we don't know what's going to happen. Maybe we can get it funded. Maybe we can't, let's see what we can do. I think that would be really cool. Yeah. Marketing director. Yeah. That's yeah, I mean, candidly, I'd like, I'd like some straight down the middle McDonald's deals. Oh, I'm sure. You're right. Yeah, you don't necessarily want to become the reputation of like, we only do wacky deals. Right. I think that that would be a really cool proof of concept for like, hey, if we can handle the wacky stuff, imagine what we can do for your regular stuff. Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll say this. Like we have a deal. I won't go into all the details of it, but it's, it's super wacky. And the guy has been trying to buy the property from his landlord. He's the operator and tenant right now. And he finally got terms on our platform and he went to the guy. And it was like, Hey, I'm ready to close. And the guy was like, how now after two years are you able to close when arguably it's gotten way worse over the last two years? And he's like, well, I found this platform and you know, this is how it works. Guy was like, give me the link. And that guy is now, I think he's closed three deals with us and he's got four others on the platform. So, so yeah, we love the wacky deals because the wacky deals, are like awesome testimonies for us. You know, if we can solve this, we can solve your easy deal really quickly. So yeah, I would I would love some wacky deals. I don't know if I want five of them at once. Cause like I said, I'm like super competitive. I'll be up at night, like two in the morning. I'm like, I got to figure this out. How are we going to figure this out? You do one at a time and make it a series. So then you could do like, submit your wacky deals to, and we're going to see what we can do. I don't know. I think that that'd be really cool. Cause everyone nowadays loves to watch a challenge, right? Everyone loves to watch like on Instagram reels where someone is solving a problem, right? And that's what your business is. You're solving problems. Yeah. It's what really any business is, is solving problems. But I think that that's, Really, really cool to be able to say like, you know, I've been trying for two years to get this deal. And then I got connected to this platform and all of a sudden, you know, we're able to do it two years later, even though things have gotten worse. Like that's huge testament to what you guys were able to do. And it's really impressive to me. Like, well, I appreciate it. It's, it's super rewarding. Like, cause I've, again, I've been in that spot. Like I've been the 26 year old like trying to break into the business. The first deal I did, I got a property under contract and I knew it was a good deal, but I didn't even know like where to even start. And I went to the guy that gave me money for my first house as a mortgage broker. He's like, this is not residential. Like, like this is an investment deal. And he's like, go talk to this bank. And fortunately that bank central state bank, I always give them a plug. They're an incredible community bank. They're really invested in their customers. And they took a chance on me and it worked and everything actually worked better than we thought. And and so we got that one done and I was like, all right, how much money will you give me next time? And they're like, what do you mean? They're like, you got to bring us the deal first. And I was like, well, you got to tell me how much you'll give me and then I'll bring you the deal. And so they're like, I mean, maybe a half million, but it's got to make sense. And so sure enough, I went out and found a 450, 000 building and was able to, you know, put like 50 to a hundred grand of work in it and put some tenants in and do it. And then from there it was next time I was like, all right, how much this time? And they were like, no, you, you go get the deals and then we'll tell you if we'll do them or not. But like for me, I just didn't know it was, I was, I just kind of thought you just asked them how much money will you give and then you go find it. But that's my redneck, you know, backwards way of thinking is I didn't know anything about, and unfortunately had a good group to work with doing it. So I, I, I want to talk about and get your advice on for people who are getting started. Maybe they grew, I grew up in Middle Tennessee in Mount Juliet. When I was growing up, we had, you know, it was a two lane town. Now, it's a freaking metropolis. But when I was growing up, that wasn't the case. Right. And so a lot of people grow up in these environments and, and, you know, it's easy to use that as an excuse for a crutch, but I think it can actually be an advantage because I did the same thing as you. I mean, I've started flipping phone cases when I was 13 and selling on eBay and then I was making two, three, 400 a month on eBay. It's a little kid. And then I started flipping cell phones and laptops and then cars and then now it's houses and, and commercial real estate. And so but, For that person who is a younger person, maybe they're graduating college or they're getting out of high school or wherever they're at, what would be some connections that you would recommend them go seek? Like the kinds of people that they should be talking to if they want to get into. A career in real estate. You know, I would say I would say start with positive people. Negative people are just like, they're just not helpful. Like they bring the vibe down. They're going to tell you all the reasons why you can't do stuff. And that's like, to me, success in business is people that are willing to bang their head against the wall to figure out how you can do something as opposed to the person who you have to prove. That you can, you know, where it's like, Oh, you could never do that. Oh, you can never do that. Like for me early on, it was, that was motivation. Like I would tell my dad, I'd be like, I do, I just bought a golf cart for 300 bucks. He was like, it's probably stolen. I'd be like, it's not stolen. And he'd be like, let's probably doesn't even have tires on it. I'd be like, it's got, I've already seen it. It's got tires on it. He's like, well, if it's that good a deal, you know, something's wrong with it. And I'm like, you know, it actually wasn't. And it worked out. And I sold the thing like, you know, two weeks later for 700 bucks. And I think, I think that's probably the key is figure out, like find the person that you want to be and, and just add value and then surround yourself with positive people. And it could be like, you might be going into real estate. But you've got a friend that's a chef. If he's a good, positive person, like, spend time with him. Because guess what? Chefs need real estate. Yep. And I would say surround yourself with high character and, and super positive people. And if you do that, like, sooner or later, it might be in six months or it might be in six years, there will be a reason for you to do business or help each other out. And positive people attract positive people. And it could be that that chef isn't looking to build a new restaurant, but he knows the, you know, Dollar Tree rep and guess what Dollar Tree is looking for somebody in Mount Juliet to help them find stores. So I think it's more of like a personality than anything else. It's high character, hyper positive. I think you also, I mean, that's a great point. You, you reflect, whoever you are is what's reflected back to you. Yeah. So. I think to add on to that is like, look in the mirror and are you a positive person every day? You know, are you happy that you're awake and alive today and are you excited for what the day has ahead of you? Or are you coming in? Like everything's going wrong all the time. If, if that's how you view your world, that's what's going to be reflected back to you and that's the people that you'll meet. So I think that's great advice. Yeah. Well, and let's be clear, I've had plenty of times in life where I've been like, Felt like the victim and for sure, you know, so I don't want anybody to think I'm just sitting here sitting in a white horse and riding around real estate will kick you down pretty good. So but no, it's like if you, if you try to achieve that, then I really think it it'll come back around to you for sure. If you just do your best. Did you ever go to real estate meetups when you were getting started? Yes, yes. And no, I feel like like again, 2009, 2010, Mike. A lot of the meetups stopped happening. We early on Birmingham is a really small town as far as real estate. Everybody knows each other. It's super tight knit. There weren't a lot of young guys in the business. And, and that's because there wasn't any money to be made. But there was a small group and we would all go out and have beers every once in a while. And I think, I really think that was helpful because real estate had such like a cutthroat me mentality. And that it was always watch your back. People screw you. And I think because we had those meetups and because we built those relationships, I think it's a lot more fun and a lot easier to do deals in Birmingham because you've got people that'll treat you right. One specifically I'm thinking of, he and I are the same age. We used to always hang out like outside of work and I had a property that I'd bought. He put it under contract. It was going to develop it. And there was a period of time where it fell out of contract for like 45 days. And he's like, Hey, I feel like we should probably pay for this, but I know I can trust you. And unless you feel like we need to pay for it, I'm good. And I was like, no, we're good. So we actually went to the closing table without having the thing under contract. And everything went on a handshake, worked out well. And I think that goes back to those early meetups and establishing not just Not connections, but relationships. Right. And going deeper than just a, what can you do for me? Man, that's great. Well, we're coming up on our time here. So I want to ask you my final question that I ask every guest and that is, what is the connection to a person or a group of people that really change your trajectory of your life or business? Yeah, I would say there's probably a handful of them, but it goes back to the mentor. Like I, like I'm the biggest advocate for finding a mentor. Greg got me started in the business. And then a developer who was doing mixed use development downtown. His name was Dick Schmalz. Dick is a pioneer in Alabama real estate development and so many people will tell you, Hey, come over here. I'll help you out. And then when you ask, they're like, Oh man, I'm busy, but I'm telling you that guy had more going on than he knew what to do with. And every time I knocked on his door, he opened it up, brought me in ended up partnering on some deals with us. And I, I think, yeah, I think having that mentor is like the number one thing. Like you've got to accept the fact that you don't know everything and find the people that do and and let them share that, you know, wisdom with you. Man, that's awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on. This has been incredible. Like I, looking at the clock over here, it's crazy how fast time goes by when you're on a podcast episode. But yeah, if anyone wants to reach out to gumption or figure out more about you guys platform or just reach out and, and, you know, ask you any questions, where would they reach out to you at? Yeah, I think we've got, I mean, my email is ward w a r d at gumption. dev. So And then we've got all kinds of options on the website. We're accessible. Like, if I get your email at 2 in the morning and I'm awake, I'll answer it. So yeah, we're everybody on the team is, is active and ready to help. So yeah, gum. So it's gumption. dev db for developer. Yeah. Okay, great. So if any of you guys are interested and, or have commercial deals, go out, go on and check out gumption. I am a referral partner for them. And so if you want. learn more about gumption as well. You can just DM me or text me or however you want to get in contact with me and I can get you plugged in with the team as well. So thank you so much for coming on the show. And for you guys that are listening the best way for a podcast to grow is five star reviews and for you to share it. So if you got something out of this episode, please share it with friends and leave that five star review and we'll catch you guys on the next episode.